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Author Topic: How's it going?  (Read 1883 times)
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cosmobreeze
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« Reply #10 on: February 08, 2010, 06:15:38 pm »

Wow cool videos , space battles I like that stuff, cool cool cool.
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PB Doughboyy
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« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2010, 04:25:23 am »

Nice videos.  Glad to see you're still around and kicking Stainless.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2010, 03:24:54 pm by PB Doughboyy » Logged

Yeah, well I got your muffins RIGHT HERE!!!
Stainless
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« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2010, 06:51:06 pm »

Demos

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5psHGOjDHQY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZk-w8xLoiU
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« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2010, 05:52:13 am »

Simple answer: C++/CLR.
Power of .NET + power of C++.  It's hard to go wrong and we've already chucked platform cross-compatibility for the most part.
We'd lose the xbox port, but without Stainless that's meaningless anyway.
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« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2010, 09:53:45 pm »

"Is the game still planned to be written in C#?  "

That depends on who is available to work on the code. There is plenty of design documentation but it has grown to be disorganized and needs some work. The game itself is independent of it's implementation. What is important is to get it done. However, it's highly advisable to use Python as a scripting language, either a C/C++ direct binding or through Jython (for Java) or IronPython (for .NET) for several reasons. Most people currently in this team know Python to some degree and all behaviors (dialogs, combat, trading, news) were planned to be scripted and handled with an event passing system.

If you want to give it a try Repomancer and you think you have the necessary C/C++ and graphics programming skills you and other skilled programmers are always welcome. There's no pressure. You do what you can and when you have free time.

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Repomancer
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« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2010, 07:02:08 pm »

Is the game still planned to be written in C#?  It was the last time I remember reading about the subject, so I assume there's an extant codebase in that language.  While cross-linking is not much of an issue and it's certainly possible to mix and match a lot of things, it makes sense to maintain a clear division between pieces written in one language vs. another, so that you can know without looking what some chunk is written in by what it does.  Ferexample (say) the alien races' AI could be in Python while the graphics and physics are in C++, or what have you.   I often claim Rule Number One of game programming is Always Make Sense (I have several rules, all of them interchangeably Rule Number One -- that's one of them).

Opinions vary and it's you guys' project, not mine, of course, but For What It's Worth™, I wouldn't attempt anything but C++ for at least the game engine.   C++ lets you hammer on the machine as hard as you want without imposing hidden overheads, or at least many of them, and it lets you be as elegant as you want with object-oriented tricks while still being able to be shoved out of the way when you want to brute-force something.  Sometimes, it Makes Sense to grab the address of something and start doing pointer arithmetic, and it'll happily let you get away with it.  You can look at a simple section of C++ code and get a pretty good idea of what it'll translate to in assembly and how many clock cycles it'll take to run; when dealing with entities as small and numerous as pixels, shaving the nanoseconds will add up quickly.  To go even farther, there are still occasions when it comes time to drop down into actual assembly (though they are ever smaller and farther between); unless you like fiddling with stack frames, you can just let the compiler deal with all the stuff, throw in the #asm keyword, then step back up into C++ when you're done and let the compiler pop your stuff and handle the return.  I don't know of another language that's worthwhile for this sort of thing that'll let you do that (there may well be some, but nothing I'm familiar with).

(Ferinstance, the landscape surface in this image:
 
2.4 MB 1680x1050 .png

is 2049x2049 vertices times four bytes per vertex, so what you see is a shade over 16 MB. There's a source buffer, a destination buffer, and a transposition buffer for over 48 MB total.  Using pointer arithmetic, it's generated, scaled, clipped, transposed, and gets a 3-pass render in about 2200 ms, far faster than what 2-dimensional array notation yields with the same compiler settings.  I hate being second-guessed  by the compiler.  The ~4000 ms time given in the caption was for an older computer, 2200 ms is on a core 2 2.6 GHz machine.)

With the flexibility and power of C++ comes the ability to screw up so spectacularly that people will put up billboards around the resulting crater.  It will blithely let you get yourself in trouble to a degree unmatched by almost any other language.  It's kind of like driving a Ferrari or something; sure, you'll cross the finish line way ahead of the people in Hyundais, if you don't turn yourself into a red mist because you weren't paying attention.  A big project like a game can be really tricky to keep in line if you're the slightest bit careless, and that's one of the biggest arguments people have against C++.  The bottom line is that the people who write the thing have to live with it, and ya gotta go with what you know.  However, there's a reason why C++ libraries are always the first (and often the only) ones available for any game platform.  That's been true since the original Playstation and it remains that way, and it's not simply inertia on the part of those in charge.  In the last 18 years, I've never worked on a game that wasn't primarily C++ (or straight C, before C++ got popular and widely supported).  Given the changing nature and loose hierarchy of a project that survives on volunteer effort such as this one, I'd caution against even somewhat esoteric dialects like Objective C because you could wake up one morning with nobody who knows how to deal with some of the code.  It made sense for Quake 2, but it doesn't here.

Oh yeah -- Rule Number Two says that Rule Number One takes precedence over all other rules.  Rule Number Three says you should comment the crap out of your code (someday, the poor stupid sumbich trying to figure out what your code does may just be you), and Rule Number Four claims you need to null your pointers after you free them, not before.  Rule Number Five tells us not to test if something == TRUE, test for !(FALSE) instead.  You can go on as long as you want with things like these as long as you Always Make Sense™.

Um, lastly, I can't promise anything, but I'm between gigs at the moment and I'd love to see what you've got. (I've got Visual Studio Professional 2005 and the 2010 beta -- what do you build with?)  I'm not going to tell anybody what to do or anything (this not my dojo), but I could make a stab at pointing out any obvious holes and it might be fun to pound out a chunk or two if it'd help at all.  I've started looking for work and when I find it I'll have to bail out suddenly so I can't make any kind of meaningful commitment, but this could be an insanely cool game if you can pull it off and with a little luck I might be able to not screw up too badly if I can't actually accomplish anything.  Should I post in the programmer applications thread even though I can't claim to be applying, given that I could be hired too soon to contribute anything real?  Like I said, I'm a C++ head so if you decide to take a different direction I'd be of decidedly limited usefulness.  Thanx, and let me know - 
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zingbat
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« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2010, 10:51:15 pm »

I'm also very busy at the moment. Personal life takes precedence and i have a new job. Hopefully in a few weeks or a month i will update my roguelike project.
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« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2010, 03:32:29 am »

I'm busy with real life at the moment, but hopefully starting next month I'd like to look more into what options might be available to this project to make it really work, and also look into starting learning C++ and/or Python personally (at this point I have only contributed to SF3 as an artist).
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« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2010, 03:12:25 pm »

I can't speak for everyone in the team at the moment, but I'm afraid I have to admit I haven't been actively working on SF3 for the last couple of months. I had been working on compiling the design doc, but for the last two months I've been proofreading SFRPG and trying to get it ready to go to press; it's been eating up all pretty much all of my spare time.

In my opinion, the most formidable task that remains for SF3 is finding programmers with sufficient time and skills to work on the project. There has been some discussion as how best to do this; the arguments of programming language selection and open-vs-closed source have been brought up (yet again) lately. Other than that, I really haven't got much to tell you. Couldn't say about the other team members.
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cosmobreeze
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« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2010, 07:56:19 am »

You can find some answers in the old posts, anyway soon the "commanders" should answer.
This is a huge project even the original game took years to be developed, well at least i hope that this project will see light before the holographic "startrek" style rooms era, lol.
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Repomancer
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« on: January 28, 2010, 04:34:53 pm »

I'm just doing the annual poke-my-head-in to see what's up, because I loved the Starflight games and sincerely believe a sequel could be huge if done right.  I realize the difficulties of a volunteer project, and I know that most of the action is happening where I can't see it.  I'm an eighteen-year veteran of the games industry, and I like to think (at least) that I understand the obstacles and bumps in the road.

That said, the last post in this forum was over a month ago, and I haven't seen any screenshots for some time, let alone something on the order of a playable demo.  To quote an old industry truism, a game becomes playable when it's half complete.  I know no one is getting paid to do it, and taking the time means taking time away from other things, but a demo  -- or demos of some playable chunks -- or even a demo of a playable chunk -- would go a long way to spark enthusiasm for the project.  Interesting the outside public in the game under development may or may not be a priority -- but if not, what are the website and message board for?

Ok, a few questions unrelated to gameplay (more or less):

Do you plan to use an installer, or just have the user copy all the files into a directory and run the executable?  One is just as good as the other (it's kinda nice to get a clean uninstall just by deleting everything in the dir), as long as you don't need to auto-update or do anything else that involves the Windows registry.  Installers are a PITA to construct, and you usually have to pay for one (i.e. Install Shield).  It's a flat fee, not a royalty. One exception is Microsoft's that comes with Visual Studio (at least VS Professional) which is freebies after you buy the dev system.  The online documentation I've been able to find for any of them is pretty spotty and assumes you already know what they're talking about.  ("To install the contents of your .cab files in a directory other than where the .cab files reside, do xxxxx" -- ok, so how do I make a .cab file?  It is a SEKRIT.)  If you're going the installer route, it might do to ponder it a little before you're ready to put the thing up for download.

Another thing you probably need to think about is 64-bit support.  I'm currently bashing my head against the wall trying to convert some of my older code to run natively in Win 7 64-bit, and it's trivially easy for some things but hideously difficult or mind-numbingly tedious for others.  The 64-bit OS handles 32-bit code pretty well, but the change is coming and when you're ready to release it could well be a 64-bit world out there.  Think about it.  If you attack the problem early it could be as simple as a different set of DLLs created by throwing a switch in the #defines or something, and handled almost entirely by the compiler.

Network play used to be easy peasy, but not anymore, what with all the firewalls and cyber-vigilance that are part of every commercial operating system today.  Getting it running on a LAN vs. the big bad Internet are almost two different problems, but if you solve the second one you solve the first as far as the connection goes.  The other issue at play here is another industry truism: No game survives contact with the Internet.  All of a sudden you have ping time, lag time, dropped packets, packets received out of order, lost connections, garbage data, and a buttload of other things to deal with that never happen on a LAN.  You all are probably in a good position to deal with this, what with everyone being remote from each other.  If you haven't already worked the problem, it'd do to spend a day or three looking into it.  IMO.

But anyway, what's happening?  What do you have running?  What are the most formidable tasks that remain?  I'm just an outsider and I'm not demanding answers, I'm just curious and would love to see a finished game someday.  The (part I can see of the) message board has slowed to a crawl, I hope the project hasn't also done so.  It's difficult enough with a team of paid, experienced programmers and artists working together full-time in the same place, and it's an order of magnitude harder with volunteers scattered around the world who work on it when they can find the time -- but it can be done, and I sincerely believe the project is worth doing.   Good luck to all.
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